Harry Walters interview
Interviewer
Start out by telling me your name and your title here, and use the professor title if you would.
Harry Walters
My name is Harry Walters. I’m Director of the Hathathli Museum here at the College and I also teach Navajo History, Navajo Oral History, and Culture.
Interviewer
Let’s start out by talking about the Navajo people. Where did they come from? What are their origins?
Harry Walters
According to Navajo tradition, they say that we can from the earth from beneath the earth. There were three worlds before this present fourth world and that the three worlds was kind of a disorder. People did not really amend to the natural order, but when they came to the fourth world then order was established, and so that's what tradition said we come from that.
Interviewer
Tell me a little bit about Chaco Canyon and the Navajo's role at Chaco Canyon.
Harry Walters
Chaco Canyon was probably one of the earliest settlement of Navajo in the Southwest. And there are some rock art that have been attributed to the Navajos and also some of the Navajo oral stories talks about Chaco Canyon, you know, when that area was settled by the Anasazi. So Chaco Canyon actually existed from, you know, 800 A.D. to 1130 A.D., so if there is any bearing on when the Navajos entered the Southwest, it might have been somewhere around there.
Interviewer
Tell me about Canyon de Chelly. Why is Canyon de Chelly a special place for the Navajo people?
Harry Walters
Canyon de Chelly is a place where there is safety and there is also food and shelter. Navajo tradition says that it is like our mother; they call it our mother because it has all of the qualities of a mother--a place where you seek comfort, shelter and protection. And so the Navajos have used that ever since they came into the Southwest.
Interviewer
Tell me what happened at Canyon de Chelly when the U.S. Military rode in.
Harry Walters
During the Navajo campaign, which lasted from 1873 to 1866, the Navajos used the canyon as a place of refuge. And then in January of 1864 Colonel Kit Carson led the military into the canyon--and it was January the coldest part of the year, and then there was about two feet of snow--and he went in from the mouth, from the West side. And then Lieutenant A.J. (?)
Interviewer
Tell me what happened at Canyon de Chelly when the military rode in.
Harry Walters
Colonel Kit Carson entered the canyon from the West, and from de Chelly, from the mouth. And then Lieutenant A.J. Phifer entered the canyon from the East and Carson didn't know that there was a branch in the canyon. They thought that there was only one canyon so...
Interviewer
We were talking about Kit Carson. What happened at Canyon De Chelly?
Harry Walters
Kit Carson entered the canyon from the mouth, from the West side, and Lieutenant A.J. Phifer entered the canyon from the East, and he entered Canyon del Muerto and Carson didn't know that the canyon branch. There’s del Muerto to the South, excuse me, Canyon del Merto to the North and Canyon de Chelly to the East, and so when they were to meet half-way and Carson came and he entered the South side, Canyon de Chelly, and while Phifer was coming down from Canyon del Merto they missed each other, and then Carson, when he didn't contact Phifer, he turned around and they came back and they met where it was called Chutchin(?) ruin where both canyon's branch.
Interviewer
What did they do at Canyon de Chelly?
Harry Walters
Well there was no direct contact with the Navajos. The Navajos who were living in the canyon there had already fled and they left frankly all of their belongings-- you know, hogans and blankets and food and things like that--but there were Navajos on top of the canyon who were yelling, you know, and shooting arrows at the troops. And then, so Carson ordered all the hogans burned, and then whatever food that the army could not carry they piled them and they burned them, and then he ordered the volunteers, about 75 members volunteered, and they went back into the canyon and they cut fruit trees. There were peaches, apricots and apples and they estimated that in three days they cut about 7,000 trees. And so this was the straw that broke the camels back you might say, and the Navajos began to surrender in large numbers the following month in February.
Interviewer
What kind of a man was Kit Carson?
Harry Walters
Kit Carson was a man that was very dedicated to, you know, his profession and he was not of the same mold as General ...
Interviewer
From the Navajo perspective, what kind of a man was Kit Carson?
Harry Walters
From the Navajo perspective he was an evil man. From the Navajo perspective, Kit Carson was an evil man. From the Navajo perspective, Kit Carson was an evil man, but I have done some research on him and he seems to be a very reasonable man. He's not of the same mold as others like Colonel Shivington or... I can't think... or General Custer.
Kit Carson, from the Navajo perspective, Kit Carson was an evil man, but I have done a lot of research on him and I find him to be a very reasonable man, you know, dedicated to his profession--and that he is not of the same mold as General Carleton or General Custer, or General Shivington. He does everything within reason and he knew the Indians, and there are some stories, some horror stories along The Long Walk--I don't think that this was the military policy, I think those were done probably by, you know, the individual than the army, but most of the conflict, most of the damage that was done was by the Utes, you know. Carson was an agent to the Utes before, so he knew them well and he knew also that the Utes also know the Navajo country, well and they know the Navajos, so he enlisted them as scouts, and then General Carleton also encouraged the Utes to raid into the Navajo country. So I think that without the assistance of the Utes, the Navajo campaign would have lasted a long, long time.
Interviewer
Do you think it would have been... Carson is somewhat sympathetic to native people... do you think it would have been worse if someone else had been in his shoes?
Harry Walters
Carson has been married to Indian women to occasion, and he had children by them, and so he knew the Indians and he was very sympathetic to them. I think that if it was any other person than him, you know, there would have been a lot more horror stories.
Interviewer
Why did The Long Walk happen?
Harry Walters
The Long Walk happened because the Americans, the European Americans had this goal, which is the manifest destiny, and that we were not citizens of the United States at that time. We were considered as enemy, so to do whatever they want to with us. And that in many cases we live on good farm land, choice land, land that has gold, and then, so the policy was to remove the Indians out of the way of the advancing civilization, and Oklahoma was the place where the Indian country was, so during that period, a total of 43 different tribes from all over the United States were removed to Oklahoma. So that was what the government had in mind for the Navajos. But as it turned out, there were too many of us, and there was about 8,000 Navajos at Bosque Redondo Reservation, and it's estimated that another 2,000 did not make The Long Walk. They stayed behind.
Interviewer
How brutal was The Long Walk? How were the people treated and what happened to them on The Long Walk?
Harry Walters
The brutality and the suffering of The Long Walk, I think, was due to the fact that there were a large number of Navajos that were moved, and also the time of the years--January and February--and so it is said that in many cases the March was ten-miles long and that the government did not have any idea how large the number the Navajos were and that there was no money to feed and cloth the captives on the way and Carson had to feed them out of military supplies. And then there were also Utes, Pueblos and New Mexicans that also prey on the people along the way.
Interviewer
We were talking about the brutality of The Long Walk. What happened there and how brutal were the soldiers?
Harry Walters
The brutality and the suffering that the people experienced during The Long Walk, I think, was probably due to a large fact that the Navajos were in great numbers, and then the military had overestimated the population of the Navajos, and so in many cases...
Interviewer
Tell me how brutal this was... the Long Walk?
Harry Walters
I think that the weather, the time of the year had something to do with it in January and February of 1864, and that in many cases the march was ten miles long and the army did not have adequate food or clothing for the captives, and then there were also New Mexicans, Utes and Pueblos also came down and attacked them along the way. There were not enough soldiers, escorts for protection, and then so many of the people died along the way. And then of course there were some of them who froze to death and then others starved to death.
Interviewer
What did they find when they got to Bosque Redondo?
Harry Walters
When they got there, there were plenty of trees and they began building hogans, and then there was... you put in fields. And then of course as the years went by the trees began to dwindle and then they were reduced to using their hogans for firewood, and in the end they were reduced to living in a hole that they just dug in the ground and covered it with canvas. It was a very terrible situation.
Interviewer
Tell me about Manuelito. What kind of a man was he?
Harry Walters
During the Long Walk period, Manuelito was a young man. In 1859 when the Americans first entered the Navajo country, the Navajos were puzzled by who these people were, and then some of the elders, like Zarcillas Largo, advocated that they should make peace with them, but the younger men, which was led by Manuelito, said "no," and then they wanted to fight. They said there is only a few of them and we can easily defeat them. So at the ceremony called (Nauchit) it is said that Zarcillas Largos was over-ruled, and he became very angry and he left before the ceremony was over.
Interviewer
Tell me about Barboncito. What kind of a man was he?
Harry Walters
There was not very much mentioned about Barbocito before the Long Walk. But he was from Canyon de Chelly, and he was of the mighty "schechnie" of the Hamous(?) clan, and he was an elder during this period so in his youth he was a great warrior, you know he distinguished himself as a great warrior, but in his later years he was a Peace Chief. Navajos have two leaders; one as a warrior or what we call (Nashtesha nautaunie-Navajo) which means "a war leader", and also a Peace Chief, (wachzarjenaught aunie-Navaho). And so during the Long Walk period, Barbencito was a Peace Chief, and then for this reason he was selected by the people to represent them with the Peace Commissioner.
Interviewer
What are the lessons learned from the Long Walk? What can we learn from that experience?
Harry Walters
I think that the suffering that the people went through, you know, was very devastating for us. But you know like everything else, it has two folds; the suffering and the other one is what we gain since then--the treaty that was signed and the things that were promised in the treaty. It is still valid today and then this college is one of those because education, you know, was promised in the treaty. The Government is responsible for the education of the Navajo children.
Interviewer
How do you feel about your ancestors who make the Long Walk?
Harry Walters
I feel terrible, of course. But my grandfather made the Long Walk. Today some of the elders that are still living today can count their grandparents making the Long Walk, but most of us people of my generation--there are two or three generations since then. But with me, my grandmother married my grandfather. My grandmother was 15 and my grandfather was 53 when they married in the early 20th century. And so I happen to have a grandfather who made the Long Walk, and he made the Long Walk when he was six years old and he came back when he was ten. He lost his father at Bosque Redondo, but he came back with his mother.
Interviewer
Any other stories you can tell of ancestors from that period?
Harry Walters
I think every Navajo family has a relative that made the Long Walk and each family had their own stories. And here at the College in my history class, I require a research paper, and many students write about their great-grandfather or grandmother who made the Long Walk. So it is still fresh in our memories today.
Interviewer
We talked earlier about Kit Carson. What kind of man was Kit Carson?
Harry Walters
Kit Carson was a very unusual man. And he is not of the same mold as General Custer or Colonel Shivington, or even General Carleton; and all indication is that he is a very reasonable man and he does not fly off the handle, you might say. He does everything that he is assigned by order. He tried to resign his commission during the Navajo campaign. He actually enlists in the Army to fight in the Civil War, but when General Carleton found out that Carson was in the Army, he commissioned him a Colonel and ordered him to organize a New Mexico regiment, which he did. And then his next order was to round up the Mescalero Apache, which he did in three months. And then his next order was to round up the Navajos. And all indication was that he did not want to do that, and he tried to get out of it several times. But when you're in the Army, the military owns you, and so this is how he carried out the Navajo campaign.
Interviewer
Tell me again about Canyon de Chelly and why that is so important to the Navajo people.
Harry Walters
Canyon de Chelly and the Navajo is said to be like our mother; it is often called the mother because it is the place you seek comfort, shelter and protection. And so throughout the ages the Navajos had used Canyon de Chelly. There are good farms lands down there. There's water, and also there are fruit trees. And then it is warm down there, and so it was a place that people would take refuge in time of danger.
Interviewer
What was the aftermath of the military campaign at Canyon de Chelly? What happened after the military came in there?
Harry Walters
When the military entered the canyon under Kit Carson in January of 1864, there were two feet of snow. When Carson came in he found the canyon abandoned, but there were homes; hogans, shelter. And there were also a lot of places, granary where food was stored; corn, beans squash, whatever. Carson did not find any Navajos in there, but what he did was that he went about and destroyed all of the hogans and then he broke open some of the granary and then he fed some of them to his animals, and what he could not carry that the army could use, he burned them and then he also asked for volunteers to go back and stay behind and to chop the fruit trees. There were peaches, apricots, apples that were growing in there. And in his report he said that during the three days, these volunteers chopped down 7,000 trees and so this broke the Navajo backbone, and that within the month a large number of Navajos began to surrender.
Interviewer
Can you tell me about the story of Fortress Rock? How did that transpire?
Harry Walters
Fortress Rock incident did not happen during the Long Walk. I think there is a lot of misunderstanding among the Navajos about Fortress Rock. The Fortress Rock incident: where some soldiers or some expedition came and camped underneath and the Navajos took refuge at the top of this mesa; and there are ladders that still can be seen, and when they were there they ran out of water. So undercover in darkness it is said that some young man climbed down with ropes and got water without waking the Spaniards. So the Fortress Rock incident happened during the Mexican period, not the Long Walk. If it had happened I'm sure Carson would have... you would read about it in his report. There is no report about that incident.
Interviewer
You told me earlier about the origins of the Navajo. Where did they come from and what kind of people are they?
Harry Walters
The Navajos are Athabaskan-speaking people and the Athabaskans live throughout Canada and into Alaska. They are related to three other people; the Clinkets, the Hida and the Ee-at. The Southern Athabaskans, which the Navajos and the Apaches are, probably came down from the North somewhere, I put it around the later part of the Anasazi period.
Interviewer
Tell me again about Chaco Canyon and the relationship the Navajos have with Chaco Canyon?
Harry Walters
Chaco Canyon is probably one of the earliest settlements of Navajos in the Southwest, and that there are some rock arts that are still visible today that are attributable to the Navajos. And the Navajo tradition says that there were people living at Chaco Canyon when the Navajos came there, and there is a story about a great gambler that was said to have taken place in Chaco Canyon--that the Pueblo of Chaco Canyon. And from the archeological standpoint Chaco Canyon was occupied from 800 A.D. to 1130 A.D., so if there is any indication of when the Navajos entered the Southwest, it might have been around that period.
Interviewer
Tell me the story of Narbona and how that episode--being accused of the stolen horse--may have set up the Navajo-U.S. Military relationship for the future.
Harry Walters
Narbona is a Navajo leader who lived in the first half of the nineteenth century, and he was killed in 1849 under the military that was commanded by General John M. Washington. At that time in 1849 it is said that he was a very old man; probably in his 90's or 80's, and that he is one of the Navajos that was well-versed in the Spanish, Mexican and military--I mean, American affairs. The traditional Navajo homeland (Dinetah), in Northwestern New Mexico, he was probably born during the time when the Navajos first began to move into Arizona in the Canyon de Chelly, and that he tried to keep the peace between the Americans and the Navajos, but an incident at the place which bares his name now, Narbona Pass, the military expedition under General... Colonel John M. Washington met the Navajos there and then it is said that one of the New Mexicans spotted a horse that was stolen from him sometime before and there was an argument. Washington demanded that their horse be turned over to him and then there was a scuffle that broke out. And then the military open-fired against the Navajos, and one of the first that was killed was Narbona.
Interviewer
When the Navajos look back at the Long Walk period, what are their feelings...?
Harry Walters
I think that it was a terrible, terrible time and that I know that with me, you know, my grandfather and my great-grandfather who was buried there and my feeling of injustice, you know, a great wrong that was done. But since then there has been a lot of things that we have gained from that, you know the treaty for example. And then there were also some legislation that have been passed since then that have been very beneficial to us. I think that the Americans, in looking back at this incident--the guilt on the part of the Americans, you know, have played a role in these legislations.
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